Sunday, October 16, 2005

At Big Homebuilder, Megalomania Rules

This long and rambling New York Times story on Toll Brothers has some interesting highlights. "Even as housing sales slowed in late summer, it remained clear that the idea of a bubble wasn't really worrying the people at Toll Brothers. But why? Bob Toll conceded to me that Alan Greenspan, chairman of the Federal Reserve, had a good point: some housing markets were frothy and infested with speculators. Toll agreed that the mortgage industry needed to tighten up its lending practices and stop pushing interest-only loans to high-risk clients." "At the moment, Toll controls enough land for nearly 80,000 houses. Its competitors, which tend to build lower-priced houses on smaller lots, have even larger accumulations. K. Hovnanian has land for more than 100,000 houses. Pulte Homes holds 350,000 sites. Still others, Lennar, Centex Homes, D. R. Horton, KB Home, control hundreds of thousands as well. And all of them are in ferocious pursuit of more." "The company's expected production of around 8,600 houses this year will expand to at least 15,000 houses by 2010." "(Tolls) conclusions carry a whiff of new-paradigm thinking, but he nevertheless seems convinced that Europe's present-day reality is America's destiny. I asked Toll what our children, my kids are both under 8, I told him, would be paying when they're ready to buy. 'They're going to live with us until they're 40,' Toll said matter-of-factly. 'And when they have their second kid, then we'll finally kick them out and make them pay for the house that we paid for. And that house will cost them 45 to 50 percent of their income.'" "I grew alarmed. Was he kidding? He assured me he was not. 'It's all just logic,' Toll said. 'In Britain you pay seven times your annual income for a home; in the U.S. you pay three and a half.' The British get 330 square feet, per person, in their homes; in the U.S., we get 750 square feet. Not only does Toll say he believes the next generation of buyers will be paying twice as much of their annual incomes; in terms of space, he also seems to think they're going to get only half as much. 'And that average, million-dollar insane home in the burbs? It's going to be $4 million.'" "In midsummer, he predicted that some metropolitan areas, 'New York and Washington and Phoenix and San Fran and L.A. and Las Vegas and Naples and Boca', were about to slow down painfully. 'Investors will get creamed, and they'll get out of the deals,' he said, noting that a subsequent recovery would take anywhere from 3 to 10 months. But beyond that, a catastrophic crash? 'Why can't real estate just have a boom like every other industry?' Toll asked in complaint. 'Why do we have to have a bubble and then a pop?'"

11 comments:

  1. The European comparison is not very useful in general. They have higher density and much less room to expand their housing. These conditions are only present in selected areas of the US (the major coastal cities). However, this long term trend is not important in the short run, and does not refute the cyclical downturn that is upon us now.

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  2. Mr Toll's comparison of America to Europe is just flat out wrong and the numbers don't work. First of all, Europe is predominantly socialistic in it's structure. Therefore, they have free health care, day care and education. How can we in the U.S. devote the same percantage of our income if we have to fund those things out of pocket. You cannot have expensive housing and expensive health care, and expensive day care, and expensive education. It does not work!!!! America only works BECAUSE of inexpensive housing costs relative to Europe. Mr. Toll is wrong, and history should judge him for these statements.

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  3. “Great! That means even Mr. Toll thinks San Diego median house price is more likey to fall to 400K from present 570K. Maybe it won't go as low as 200K”

    =====

    Logical if all homes are priced exactly the same. But that is not reality. There will always be variation in price levels, with preferred areas being at higher prices. If Toll’s logic is correct the prices you mentioned would be for the average home in the US. However, I don’t believe the comparison with Europe is that simple.

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  4. The Europeans do not have free healthcare. They pay for it in their taxes.

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  5. IF enough fools buy Toll's story,it will indeed be a good party for the bears in the end.

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  6. "I grew alarmed. Was he kidding? He assured me he was not. 'It's all just logic,' Toll said. 'In Britain you pay seven times your annual income for a home;

    Guys, no need to rationalize this in comparison with the US housing market (socialism, taxes, etc.). It is FLAT OUT WRONG. FALSE. Toll is Lying. Do a google on "price income england." Here is one of the top links (from 2003, before their bubble burst.)

    "The ratios analysis
    The average ratio of house price to income in England was 3.4 to 1, while regional average ratios range from 4.8 to 1 in London to just 2.3 to 1 in the North East Region."

    http://www.jrf.org.uk/knowledge/findings/housing/573.asp

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  7. PS: I now know how he arrived to that number (7:1). He took the top two areas for price/income in all of england. One was at 7.92 (Westminster) and the second was Camden (7.09.) The remaining 38 areas on the list of "highest house price to income ratios" have ratios of under 7!

    Pants on fire!

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  8. "HedgeFundAnalyst said...
    This Toll dude is on crack"

    Hedge,I doubt it . The people who are buying from him may be.
    But let’s stay on the drug theme for a sec….
    I bet he is dumping shares from his company and buying up the Pharmas that will be supplying anti depressants to his customers in the near future.

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  9. It all depends on who the next Fed chair is, whether Mr. Toll's vision is correct, doesn't it?

    If we get another Fed chair with an accomodative money policy, then we'll continue to have asset and commodity inflation, and bubbles.

    OTOH, if we get a real inflation hawk, money will be scarce and valuable again.

    My bet is on someone who will continue to flood the market with liquidity. God help us.

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  10. once you drive 30-40 miles north of SF, there's nothing but wide open spaces until Portland. Same with Vegas, same with Phoenix, same with lots of other 'boom' towns. SoCal is different. It's paved over from Santa Monica to San Ysidro.

    Eh, not if you go a tad bit East. Go about 30-40 miles East of the coast and SoCal is a lot of desert and mountains (at least in San Diego county).

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  11. Several big European countries would have falling populations already if it wasn't for immigration.

    And I recall that several countries, such as Germany and Switzerland have a nearly negligible (0.5%) annual gains in housing. US and Europe are hard to compare, particularly with land available to future housing.

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